tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post2144729261188763894..comments2024-03-13T06:57:54.343+00:00Comments on Obnoxio The Clown: Tribal politicsObnoxio The Clownhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12012089552153702526noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-323718650828690702010-07-24T20:00:00.984+01:002010-07-24T20:00:00.984+01:00"Did Anna tell you to fuck off, or what?"..."Did Anna tell you to fuck off, or what?"<br /><br />Don't be daft - at my age I say yes to anything that's going. <br /><br />Yes, I am quite happy to host a Libertarian/Ancap/Anarchist debate.<br /><br />I think a lot of people would be interested in the discussion you two have been having, and perhaps want to join in? <br /><br />I propose you both write a short piece setting out your main thesis, I shall put it up as a blog post, give it its own tab at the top of the page, and then anyone who wants to can join in or read it for reference at a later stage. <br /><br />A clean fight mind you ladies, no ad hominem abuse! <br /><br />Thaddeus and I will be watching.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-3902983919623771222010-07-24T11:23:15.879+01:002010-07-24T11:23:15.879+01:00"Now please tell me at which point and why my..."Now please tell me at which point and why my logic is wrong."<br /><br />Point a) "In the UK we have a system that the vast majority of people may not love, but they definitely accept."<br /><br />No they don't. They only "accept" it because they've never been offered an alternative.Bayardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15211150959757982948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-21313993797563077362010-07-24T07:57:50.051+01:002010-07-24T07:57:50.051+01:00Here's an AnCap bibliography
link
Many of t...Here's an AnCap bibliography <br /><br /><a href="http://www.lewrockwell.com/hoppe/hoppe5.html" rel="nofollow">link</a><br /><br />Many of these works look directly at the provision of security and defence on the market.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-59934564546754144022010-07-23T22:32:17.454+01:002010-07-23T22:32:17.454+01:00@Obo
Cool it. Love your rants (& your sly .....@Obo<br /><br />Cool it. Love your rants (& your sly .... whatevers). But sometimes one needs to take a step back.<br />I hold no brief for Kingbingo (& even less for the Two Cockwavers).<br />Assuming one votes. Voting for the 'least bad' alternative seems to be logical, whatever one's personal convictions.Consequentialnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-52213035884630898282010-07-23T22:23:48.553+01:002010-07-23T22:23:48.553+01:00@Mama Peperbarmi
You're back!!! Joy unconfine...@Mama Peperbarmi<br />You're back!!! Joy unconfined!!!<br />I'd fuck you myself, but I don't want to catch an 'exceedingly terrible sicki-ness'.<br />Tell me, have you noticed a yellow streak in the green pus ooze?Fuck Perbarmi's Mamanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-7787993952068320682010-07-23T18:40:52.792+01:002010-07-23T18:40:52.792+01:00"You have got to be joking! I supplied the ex..."You have got to be joking! I supplied the example, based on your new religion and showed why it wouldn’t work in direct response to your question."<br /><br />But you didn't show why it wouldn't work. You made a number of "interesting" assumptions which are, to my mind at least, rather questionable.<br /><br />But the problem is that everything I say will follow this process: I will suggest something, you will find a genuine or bogus flaw, I will rebut, you will rebut my rebuttal and round and round it will go. <br /><br />I will never convince you because you do not want to be convinced.<br /><br />"I have given up on your making your own case for yourself."<br /><br />Did Anna tell you to fuck off, or what?Obnoxio The Clownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12012089552153702526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-87364808177497666172010-07-23T18:33:49.228+01:002010-07-23T18:33:49.228+01:00“ And can you now see why I haven't bothered t...“ And can you now see why I haven't bothered to provide you with a detailed plan about how an anarchist society would work? You have done nothing but pick apart every single thing I've said here”<br /><br />You have got to be joking! I supplied the example, based on your new religion and showed why it wouldn’t work in direct response to your question. <br /><br />I have given up on your making your own case for yourself.Kingbingohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08943872286295476316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-66976442470169952142010-07-23T18:29:09.331+01:002010-07-23T18:29:09.331+01:00You assume a lot. What happens if 12 and 23 have i...You assume a lot. What happens if 12 and 23 have insurance with Thugcorp? They're not freeloading, and the bouncer in the road is perfectly entitled to carry a sign saying "I don't protect 12 and 23".<br /><br />And can you now see why I haven't bothered to provide you with a detailed plan about how an anarchist society would work? You have done nothing but pick apart every single thing I've said here, something that I recall you promised faithfully you would accept with a smile and move on.Obnoxio The Clownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12012089552153702526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-89461309095168941252010-07-23T18:23:47.758+01:002010-07-23T18:23:47.758+01:00“I'm really not sure how that would transpire....“I'm really not sure how that would transpire.”<br /><br />Let’s say Musclecorp is private insurance firm that 90% of your street sign up to provide protection.<br /><br />You pay a premium and every time you get beaten up or burgled they have to pay you £10k. Classic insurance model. <br /><br />Now Musclecorp decides that because so many people on your street are member they are going to have a full time bouncer patrol your street because it is cheaper for them to pay someone to do that then pay out every other month. <br /><br />Wonderful. The free market is now giving you better security for less money in premiums than you used to pay in tax. As long as you avoid the streets with no enforcement where anything goes. <br /><br />Number 12 & 23 Obnoxio lane is not a member, and pays no premiums, but they get the benefits of living on a street that is patrolled.<br /><br />Musclecorp write to you and say that many people have complained that number 12 & 23 is freeloading, and that they want a team of bouncers to collect a premium from them, and oh, if they do they will accordingly adjust your premiums down. You agree because your fed up with them freeloading on your premiums. <br /><br />Well done, you just reinvent taxation with another name.Kingbingohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08943872286295476316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-76276036203224848572010-07-23T18:11:23.860+01:002010-07-23T18:11:23.860+01:00“Will each corporation have its own mint too? Will...“Will each corporation have its own mint too? Will we be forced to pay exchange rate commissions to convert our Sainsbury's Nectars into ASDA Pounds?<br /><br />Will we need a completely new kind of economy based on time?”<br />I assume they could all issue notes backed by gold, silver, although any commodity that is tradable would do. If people are willing to buy notes that are backed by something else, say, the land that Tesco’s built their stores on, or their capital equipment and people are willing to accept them why not.<br />The financial services industry will quickly develop pricing mechanisms, and online accounts that contain a basket of currencies and keep them constantly priced. If we move to electronic settlement (online/debit cards) people need hardly give the matter any thought. Although they would be more circumspect about whose notes they trust. This is close to what I do in financial services, it would be a doddle, the economy would not be the same, it would be considerably stronger with no more boom and bust from liquidity flow distortions like we have now with fiat money.Kingbingohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08943872286295476316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-45218648610505051882010-07-23T18:08:41.305+01:002010-07-23T18:08:41.305+01:00"So in their dream scenarios’ where law and o..."So in their dream scenarios’ where law and order are enforced by private business there is nothing to stop these firms from, once they are large enough, deciding with their members consent to start charging non-members for the safety they provide, by coercion."<br /><br />I'm really not sure how that would transpire. The whole point of private business in a deregulated market is that there is no protection of incumbents. Before any business could get to monoploy size, other players would enter the market and chip away at market share.<br /><br />Unless they ALL colluded together to claim "protection" which they would all be getting paid anyway? <br /><br />And as soon as they tried to jack the price up, a dozen new competitors would emerge and undercut them. And because they were cheaper, everyone would stop paying the incumbents and they would go out of business.Obnoxio The Clownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12012089552153702526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-2625092594144686712010-07-23T18:03:12.267+01:002010-07-23T18:03:12.267+01:00“How does a corporate monopoly become functionally...“How does a corporate monopoly become functionally any different to a big state?”<br />Exactly, what Rothbard and Obnoxio and Hoppe ( from what I can tell having read so far) all assume is that bureaucratic growth and coercion can only happen in organisations that bear the name ‘state’. <br /><br />In each case they replace the state with a network of private enFORCEment agencies. But the use of force never goes away. Violence is a constant in any society with scares resources. So in their dream scenarios’ where law and order are enforced by private business there is nothing to stop these firms from, once they are large enough, deciding with their members consent to start charging non-members for the safety they provide, by coercion. And then your right back where we started with coercion and tax, with something that looks so much like a state it’s the same thing. <br /><br />Its why libertarians despair the Ancaps and their preciousness about the role of monopoliser of force in a society.Kingbingohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08943872286295476316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-84734071705510445452010-07-23T17:48:02.934+01:002010-07-23T17:48:02.934+01:00"How will money work? Without some form of ce..."How will money work? Without some form of central enforcement, it's just worthless paper. Will each corporation have its own mint too?"<br /><br />Enforcement is a horrible word. What money should do, is represent value. You should have complete trust in the currency.<br /><br />It is quite likely that different banks (or anyone!) could create their own currencies. A limited form of this exists in Scotland. But if you had less faith in RBS Pounds, you'd ask for more of them in exchange for your Tesco Pounds (or whatever). <br /><br />Weak currencies would eventually be driven out of circulation.Obnoxio The Clownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12012089552153702526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-20670996542363444852010-07-23T17:44:33.974+01:002010-07-23T17:44:33.974+01:00"Why should people expect capitalists to *avo..."Why should people expect capitalists to *avoid* creating vast, lumbering, corporate monopolies even though this is the natural tendency of *all* businesses?"<br /><br />Big business happens because regulation protects incumbents. Without regulation to protect the incumbent, new entrants to profitable markets can happen at the drop of a hat. These new entrants may offer services that are not cost-effective to the bigger company and will so chip away at the big companies' market share.Obnoxio The Clownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12012089552153702526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-78871907811329152572010-07-23T17:41:44.925+01:002010-07-23T17:41:44.925+01:00"Lets give them a full term at least before w..."Lets give them a full term at least before we judge what they have actually done"<br /><br />And when the state owes a trillion Pounds, and your bins are still being spied on, and there are more quangos than ever, what then, Kingbingo?<br /><br />Will you still be saying "Yes, but it's better than it could have been"?<br /><br />Even if that's true, has it really brought us any closer to libertarianism, or has it just taken us a yard less further away from libertarianism?Obnoxio The Clownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12012089552153702526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-27966295982906548102010-07-23T17:38:18.358+01:002010-07-23T17:38:18.358+01:00"My point is: how is this kind of *free marke..."My point is: how is this kind of *free market* cock-up any better or worse than the "Big State" problem? Both are *exactly the same thing*."<br /><br />Neither Nokia nor Microsoft operate in anything like a free market, so it's hard to compare. But the reality of it is, if they fuck up enough, eventually they will go pop, and some other bugger will come along and pick up the pieces.<br /><br />You don't have that luxury with a government. It doesn't matter who wins the election, the state carries on uncorrected and unchanged -- apart from bigger.Obnoxio The Clownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12012089552153702526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-34630665219478801872010-07-23T17:36:00.205+01:002010-07-23T17:36:00.205+01:00"Some men are fighters not quitters. Bluntly...."Some men are fighters not quitters. Bluntly."<br /><br />Right. So, even though I might not be articulate enough or presentable enough to get myself elected or I really don't want to tell other people how to live their lives, if I don't get myself elected, I have no right to complain about the government I have?<br /><br />It's a curious thing to say: I don't want a government, and the only option you give me is that I actually have to run for government and govern. Which is something I don't believe in and don't want to do.<br /><br />It's a bit like fucking for virginity, isn't it?Obnoxio The Clownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12012089552153702526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-54952902137772704972010-07-23T16:42:56.415+01:002010-07-23T16:42:56.415+01:00John Demoderatriou said,
"Us who dare to hav...John Demoderatriou said,<br /><br />"Us who dare to have a slightly different optinion...and say it on a blog!"<br /><br /><br />Whats an "optinion" genius?, "Us" er try "We".Mama Peperbarminoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-29818895992508802502010-07-23T16:30:20.494+01:002010-07-23T16:30:20.494+01:00Kingbingo said,
"Lets give them a full term ...Kingbingo said,<br /><br />"Lets give them a full term at least before we judge what they have actually done"<br /><br />Its not all doom and gloom,at least "cast iron" Dave is making noises about cutting quangos,but there is a hell of a lot that needs fixing, a lot of people are impatient to see results,I suspect we will have more of the same just blue instead of red.Peperbarmihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14390448833897716671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-17575685577396694592010-07-23T15:55:28.011+01:002010-07-23T15:55:28.011+01:00I work in the IT industry. I've been watching ...I work in the IT industry. I've been watching Microsoft and Nokia slowly implode for at least five years. <br /><br />One of Nokia's ex-employees, Juhanni Risku recently wrote a book explaining some of the key issues—the "Peter Principle" rears its predictable head regarding the 500-odd middle managers. (Interview with Risku here: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/07/22/nokia_manifesto_risku/)<br /><br />My point is: how is this kind of *free market* cock-up any better or worse than the "Big State" problem? Both are *exactly the same thing*.<br /><br />A government isn't a special case. It's just a gigantic, legally-sanctioned monopoly. This doesn't mean it's not stuffed with *people*, each with their own agendas, each with their own level of incompetence.<br /><br />For "shareholders", read "electorate". Show me any PRACTICAL difference between the two systems! Why should people trust capitalists any more than they trust governments? <br /><br />Most importantly: Why should people expect capitalists to *avoid* creating vast, lumbering, corporate monopolies even though this is the natural tendency of *all* businesses?<br /><br />How does a corporate monopoly become functionally any different to a big state?<br /><br />How will money work? Without some form of central enforcement, it's just worthless paper. Will each corporation have its own mint too? Will we be forced to pay exchange rate commissions to convert our Sainsbury's Nectars into ASDA Pounds?<br /><br />Will we need a completely new kind of economy based on time?<br /><br />How do you encourage research and development if you have no way to enforce patent and copyright laws? What will happen to the research universities?<br /><br />Who's going to enforce property ownership? Or will we all (a) have to own guns, and (b) hope to Codd that we don't have crap eyesight? (Which rules me out.)Sean Baggaleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05566198834315094334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-22410559975188655942010-07-23T15:53:27.013+01:002010-07-23T15:53:27.013+01:00"the Tories are the least-worst option is com..."the Tories are the least-worst option is completed disputed by the facts of what they have actually done"<br /><br />Lets give them a full term at least before we judge what they have actually doneKingbingohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08943872286295476316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-23599763076469436292010-07-23T15:51:44.111+01:002010-07-23T15:51:44.111+01:00“And if I'm quite happy with my chosen job? Wh...“And if I'm quite happy with my chosen job? Why do I have to give it up and run for office? And even if I give up my life and run for office, what happens if I fail?”<br /><br />Some men are fighters not quitters. Bluntly.Kingbingohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08943872286295476316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-85735997287416604112010-07-23T15:45:57.582+01:002010-07-23T15:45:57.582+01:00"You asked me about my ideal state so I told ..."You asked me about my ideal state so I told you. Now you’re asking about how we actually start getting anywhere near it. Now we are back to hard headed pragmatism and the realization that we can’t get everything we want. We just get to pick the least worse viable option. That’s why I’m a Tory."<br /><br />Right. Which is why we're so much better off under Cameron with his plans to recycle Gordon's failed policies.<br /><br />Your "hard headed pragmatism" is actually a pair of rose tinted spectacles. The Tories are a whisker to the right of Labour, but not enough to make an measurable difference. Yet you keep telling yourself (and us) that it's all going to be different because your team are in charge.<br /><br />But every single time they *do* anything, as opposed to *saying* anything, if you closed your eyes you wouldn't be able to tell them apart from Labour.<br /><br />You keep telling yourself it's hard-headed pragmatism. You keep telling yourself that nobody could survive without a state to protect them. You keep telling me I'm a fool for looking at the mess every single permutation of the state has created and saying we can do fine without one.<br /><br />You will forgive, I'm sure, if I do not accept your views. Because while your ideal is as unreachable as mine, it is a lot less desirable and impractical besides; and your bland suggestion that the Tories are the least-worst option is completed disputed by the facts of what they have actually done, when compared with what they said they would do.Obnoxio The Clownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12012089552153702526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-80843316858250243272010-07-23T15:43:44.586+01:002010-07-23T15:43:44.586+01:00Hasn't the mindless hypocrite Obo given up in ...Hasn't the mindless hypocrite Obo given up in the face of his losing argument against KingBingo?<br /><br />Joy to read this. Obo coming unstuck off the rails, soon to get derailed into a bush at any given moment.<br /><br />Obo - the man who slams Boaty & D on the basis that we allegedly pretend to monopolise libertarianism. Yet his own narrow dogmatic view of libertarianism is presented as anarchism, and furthermore, fact, on his site.<br /><br />Obo - the man who said we were wrong about blog censorship and the prerogative of private blog site / property owners, but who went ahead and took the same line as we did regarding 'a very public sociologist'.<br /><br />Obo - the man who slams me for using ad hominems and cognitive dissonance in my arguments, yet when it comes to being challenged on here, he is the first to pile out the rampant abuse (noted by King bingo)<br /><br />Obo - The man who belittles Boaty & D on the basis we blog war and hunt for stats, when it is in fact he who writes endless shit stirring articles about us and others to get attention.<br /><br />Unbridled hypocrite. Absolute shameless charlatan. No wonder you and your Country Cunt pals like Anna, DK, Bella, CF etc etc all pull together. All in your cosy little bottom right hand corner of the political spectrum, making out like your way is the true way.<br /><br />Oh, wait, we are the 'keepers', aren't we. Yes, of course. Us who dare to have a slightly different optinion...and say it on a blog!<br /><br />HAHAHAHA! Expooooosed!John Demetriouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08162148219333846404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-86065696022985969112010-07-23T15:37:12.351+01:002010-07-23T15:37:12.351+01:00“How likely do you think it is that people who are...“How likely do you think it is that people who are used to that kind of power and control will actually relinquish it?”<br /><br />People become so disgusted by the many abuses of the state they elect an ideological nutter who drives a truly radical programme through. <br /><br />In the States this could be Ron Paul, or Peter Schiff.<br /><br />Here it could be Hannan.<br /><br />It could happen. But it won’t unless Ron, Peter and Dan all decide to use the existing party mechanism and do what they can to subvert or control those entities.Kingbingohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08943872286295476316noreply@blogger.com