tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post819837279479595512..comments2024-03-13T06:57:54.343+00:00Comments on Obnoxio The Clown: That's not how you "do nothing", GorgonObnoxio The Clownhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12012089552153702526noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-53440522006105722412009-04-21T00:56:00.000+01:002009-04-21T00:56:00.000+01:00You could get elected by promising extra votes to ...You could get elected by promising extra votes to worthy people.<br /><br />EG 1 extra vote for each of the following qualifications:<br /><br />* lived/worked abroad for 2 or more years;<br />* graduate of approved university in approved subject;<br />* stable marriage for 15+ years;<br />* taxable income over (say) £50,000 pa;<br />* officially working for a CHRISTIAN church;<br />* 1 extra vote in the gift of the monarch.<br /><br />Hat tip: Nevil Shute, "In The Wet"<br /><br />The idea is that you give more power to those people who live in the image of the country you aspire to lead.gordon-bennetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00249699675694944419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-72152084238257623122009-03-23T00:39:00.000+00:002009-03-23T00:39:00.000+00:00@fido: would YOU work under those constraints? No?...@fido: would YOU work under those constraints? No? So why would anyone else?<BR/><BR/>They'd just fuck off and get another job.Obnoxio The Clownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12012089552153702526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-89266422372426358722009-03-23T00:37:00.000+00:002009-03-23T00:37:00.000+00:00Re the debt question, as much of this was caused -...Re the debt question, as much of this was caused - Gordon fuckwittery aside- by banks pissing about with dodgy trading an over extending themselves.<BR/><BR/>Get the banks to pay it all off, no bonuses, perks or pensions for any of them; not a damn penny till its all paid back.Fidothedoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13588552210424845667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-58848358255271805102009-01-19T13:01:00.000+00:002009-01-19T13:01:00.000+00:00Intruder: "I take your point about not being able ...Intruder: <I>"I take your point about not being able to sell the title if in arrears... although that sounds like more bureaucracy to me as you wait for approval from the state to sell your house"</I><BR/><BR/>HM Land Registry are perfectly capable of registering a sale only when mortgage has been paid off, what's the difference here?<BR/><BR/><I>"The killer benefit of VAT to me is the control I have over the tax I pay, along with all my other spending, and the fact everyone pays the same according to what they use is about as fair as it gets in my view."</I><BR/><BR/>VAT still depresses economic activity and drives a wedge between business and customer. <BR/><BR/>Under LVT everybody pays according to how much land they occupy and how much it is worth. It does not drive a wedge between buyer and seller (it is not a tax on economically productive activity), or between owner and local council. If anything, it aligns interests.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-60082836062898760232009-01-16T22:45:00.000+00:002009-01-16T22:45:00.000+00:00Most business don't pay any VAT - they offset inpu...Most business don't pay any VAT - they offset input/output VAT and either pay what they have received or reclaim what they have paid. If they are losing money (eg too much stock and not enough sales) they actually have the VAT as a free cash float - it benefits them!<BR/><BR/>Corp tax is the worst - a million caveats and exceptions. The fact you need to hire tax accountants just to figure out what you owe sums it up.<BR/><BR/>I take your point about not being able to sell the title if in arrears... although that sounds like more bureaucracy to me as you wait for approval from the state to sell your house. You're possibly right that it's foolproof in that your land can be auctioned off if you misbehave... <BR/><BR/>The killer benefit of VAT to me is the control I have over the tax I pay, along with all my other spending, and the fact everyone pays the same according to what they use is about as fair as it gets in my view.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-38127733811999160022009-01-16T21:55:00.000+00:002009-01-16T21:55:00.000+00:00And as to avoiding LVT being impossible? If you re...<I>And as to avoiding LVT being impossible? If you register a new company every 6 months and sell the Land on, the tax will be effectively avoided.</I><BR/><BR/>Nope. You won't be able to the title if you are in arrears. That's easy. And surely it is better for everybody to pay at a lower rate, than for some to skive out of it producing a higher rate for everybody else? (the same as your VAT argument).<BR/><BR/>My main gripe against VAT (even assuming you scrapped PAYE and corp tax) is that businesses have to pay it even if they are making losses. On that front, corporation tax wins out.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-89899619958158651702009-01-16T21:22:00.000+00:002009-01-16T21:22:00.000+00:00Good points Mark"That's the beauty of it. It is no...Good points Mark<BR/><BR/>"That's the beauty of it. It is not avoidable at all - if you piss about long enough you lose your land. Even in the most inefficient boroughs, Council Tax collection rates are over 90%. If it were on the owner, not the tenant/occupant, collection would be 99.9%."<BR/><BR/>Shudder - back to state control again. <BR/><BR/>I can see the merits in your argument but it's not 'as clean' as VAT. No records, no tax-motivated state control of the individual<BR/><BR/>I'd also get rid of corp tax and PAYE which as an employer I'm constantly aware of the bullying tactics used by HMRC to get more than they deserve. VAT, in comparison, is simple to calculate and pay and incurs far fewer investigations/problems. There is little room for creative accounting - you either pay or break the law.<BR/><BR/>Your real gripe is the effect on the economy.<BR/><BR/>But VAT is already there and removing it or increasing it cannot have a long term effect - the economy has to accommodate just as it accommodates a rise in income tax or corp tax. <BR/><BR/>And when private companies take over the role of public ones, these services will be VATable as well.<BR/><BR/>So the VAT rates will go down whilst VAT income would stay the same or go up. <BR/><BR/>If anything it will provide a short term boost, but it cannot last since everything will be readjusted to balance out the economy.<BR/><BR/>And as to avoiding LVT being impossible? If you register a new company every 6 months and sell the Land on, the tax will be effectively avoided. Unless you want the director personally responsible, in which case you are in deep trouble.<BR/><BR/>LVT = good<BR/>VAT = better :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-90649277976960774132009-01-16T18:56:00.000+00:002009-01-16T18:56:00.000+00:00Intruder:it requires no database of me, or where I...Intruder:<BR/><BR/><I>it requires no database of me, or where I live or what land I own - unlike LVT. The govt have no tax records on citizens at all.</I><BR/><BR/>If you own land, don't you want that entered on the Land Registry? That's all the records they need - publicly accessible for £2 on your debit card - and it's what they've already got.<BR/><BR/>I admit that VAT requires no record keeping by individuals either, but doing three parallel tax systems (VAT, PAYE and corporation tax) is a bit of a nightmare for businesses.<BR/><BR/>And yes, I can see the enormous political appeal of VAT, that doesn't stop me hating it for its terrible effects on the economy and employment. The same as the political appeal of all this Greenie crap, that has the same effect.<BR/><BR/>And of course people will hate paying LVT - good stuff, that makes it more difficult to raise taxes and also keeps house prices down (lower house prices = lower LVT).<BR/><BR/><I>LVT assumes that you pay a fixed (monthly) amount and you still have to do that if you lose your job</I><BR/><BR/>The same goes for rent or for mortgage payments. Look at the total that Obo was suggesting, £100 billion or something, that's like £3,000 per household or something (assuming the other quarter were paid on business premises). <BR/><BR/>(Under my more modest scheme, it would be £1,500 - £2,000 per average household. But this is Obo's manifesto, not mine.)<BR/><BR/>Don't forget that the average VAT paid per household is also around £3,000 at present.<BR/><BR/><I>LVT is circumventable as well if you use offshore companies to buy the land or some such wheeze.</I><BR/><BR/>That's the beauty of it. It is not avoidable at all - if you piss about long enough you lose your land. Even in the most inefficient boroughs, Council Tax collection rates are over 90%. If it were on the owner, not the tenant/occupant, collection would be 99.9%.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-2557488522296665822009-01-16T14:01:00.000+00:002009-01-16T14:01:00.000+00:00Mark Wadsworth said..."Intruder, the economic effe...Mark Wadsworth said...<BR/><BR/>"Intruder, the economic effects of VAT are exactly as I described."<BR/><BR/>And I agree that VAT makes goods cost more than they are worth. <BR/><BR/>The downturn in the economy wouldn't happen unless VAT was increased, but I would want it to decrease (especially since many state gravy trains would be abolished and put into the private VATable sector).<BR/><BR/>But. many of your arguments for LVT compare it to NIC or corp tax or income tax... and I would guess LVT fairs well against them.<BR/><BR/>But take a step back and consider the argument for VAT.<BR/><BR/>Linking tax to spending is so simple - it requires no database of me, or where I live or what land I own - unlike LVT. The govt have no tax records on citizens at all.<BR/><BR/>LVT assumes that you pay a fixed (monthly) amount and you still have to do that if you lose your job. We all have the ability to alter our spending as we like, I want that extended to my tax spending as well. <BR/><BR/>LVT taxes the owner, not the EU citizens, illegal immigrants living 10 to a house. VAT would tax everyone equally.<BR/><BR/>VAT is a transparent tax, especially if it's printed on every receipt like most other countries. It's not built into the airline ticket, or airport usage, or fuel surcharge, or holiday insurance - it's added onto what you spend and is obvious. But that's like LVT as well I suppose. <BR/><BR/>VAT is circumventable, and making it the sole tax would make the black market as interesting as non-duty fags are now, and I don't have an answer to that... but LVT is circumventable as well if you use offshore companies to buy the land or some such wheeze.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-67875419331723863332009-01-16T12:56:00.000+00:002009-01-16T12:56:00.000+00:00Excellent stuff Obo'. I read similar on Sean Gabb'...Excellent stuff Obo'. I read similar on Sean Gabb's website, and it was like a Damascene conversion.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04072272223837426211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-76469026613910655182009-01-16T10:43:00.000+00:002009-01-16T10:43:00.000+00:00Intruder, the economic effects of VAT are exactly ...Intruder, the economic effects of VAT are exactly as I described. Along with Employer's NIC it is the worst tax, in particular because a business has to pay it even if it is making losses (unlike corporation tax, which is fairly flat tax on income or profits, and hence Milton Friedman's 'second least bad tax').<BR/><BR/>LVT (Milton Friedman's 'least bad tax') is absolutely dead easy. You divide the country into local council wards or postcode sectors, use the figures for ACTUAL selling prices and plot sizes as recorded by HM Land Registry to give an average total property value per square yard per sector, then you deduct another figure for a reasonable esimate of rebuild costs, the difference is your land/location value.<BR/><BR/>You individually have no control over the tax you pay, short of moving home or starting a crime wave or inviting gypsies to live in your front garden, but so what? It's not income-related so does not discourage people from working or saving, unlike income tax and capital gains tax.<BR/><BR/>As to affordability, this is just drivel. If people can 'afford' to pay 5% or 6% on their mortgages, of course they can afford another 1.5% property tax - it's just like a slightly higher interest rate, so it keeps house prices low and stable. <BR/><BR/>The tax you pay would be a fraction of what a newcomer to the area is prepared to pay to the bank in interest. If he can afford 5.5% interest plus 1.5% tax, existing homeowners with smaller morgage can easily afford to pay 1.5%.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-87276172103922085272009-01-15T20:57:00.000+00:002009-01-15T20:57:00.000+00:00Mark Wadsworth said..."because of elasticity of su...Mark Wadsworth said...<BR/>"because of elasticity of supply and demand, the overall output of the economy goes down."<BR/><BR/>I would guess that'd be a short-term effect, and the likelihood is that the VAT rate would go down?<BR/><BR/>"LVT is the only one that is not a double tax - it's a user charge."<BR/><BR/>VAT isn't a double tax - you earn as much as you can, save as much as you can, give away as much as you want and you spend as much as you want - but you only get taxed once. <BR/><BR/>LVT means that unless you move house (which is difficult) you have no control over the tax you pay, and you need to leave all your details and movements with the govt. or face £1000 fines for non-compliance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-89241885998987256922009-01-15T19:43:00.000+00:002009-01-15T19:43:00.000+00:00YES!!!!!!!YES!!!!!!!Patrick McGroinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11414425405599263647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-40893638014566026952009-01-15T15:06:00.000+00:002009-01-15T15:06:00.000+00:00When you're in office, can I be your cleaner? I d...When you're in office, can I be your cleaner? I do a nice turn with my mop and bucket.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-23287765559054017832009-01-15T14:41:00.000+00:002009-01-15T14:41:00.000+00:00Intruder, "[VAT is] not a double-tax (income ...Intruder, <I>"[VAT is] not a double-tax (income & expenditure)"</I>??<BR/><BR/>VAT is the politicians' favourite tax for all the reasons you mentioned! It is very much a double tax.<BR/><BR/>As a turnover tax, it drives a wedge between buyer and seller, so buyers pay more than the goods or services are worth; the seller collects less than the goods or services are worth; and because of elasticity of supply and demand, the overall output of the economy goes down.<BR/><BR/>Don't forget that one man's consumption is another man's production.<BR/><BR/>LVT is the only one that is not a double tax - it's a user charge.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-22885693558087168642009-01-15T13:18:00.000+00:002009-01-15T13:18:00.000+00:00I would vote for you just for sorting out the wret...I would vote for you just for sorting out the wretched A14 and the A1 South and North of where I live. The rest is just icing on the cake.Dr Evilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00176521760477086914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-63404264731347558102009-01-15T12:39:00.000+00:002009-01-15T12:39:00.000+00:00I've always maintained that VAT is the only ta...I've always maintained that VAT is the only tax worth keeping, and because I'm new to these blogs I havent heard the counter-argument. <BR/><BR/>It doesn't take the piss if you are on hard times, and you can control the amount of tax you end up paying.<BR/><BR/>It doesn't take the piss if you save your money in your own pension fund (savings interest, inheritance taxes).<BR/><BR/>It's not a double-tax (income & expenditure).<BR/><BR/>It's not a fixed amount that you have no (or little) control over - your spending is controlled by you.<BR/><BR/>It doesn't need control over who you are and where you live, in fact the gumint don't need to know anything about you (only the enterprises that collect the VAT). <BR/><BR/>It's easy to regulate (VAT carousel aside, which is a blip as HMRC have been found taking it all a bit too easy).<BR/><BR/>I can't see any downsides, except the black market, but I suspect that will be minor compared to the benefits.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-51264608774411579192009-01-15T10:19:00.000+00:002009-01-15T10:19:00.000+00:00@ David NCl, I am a small government free market l...@ David NCl, I am a small government free market liberal economist and the ultimate pragmatarian.<BR/><BR/>Adam Smith, David Ricardo and Milton Friedman (among others) all said that LVT was the least-bad tax, and I have more or less independently come to the same conclusion.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-22104130629150488582009-01-15T09:16:00.000+00:002009-01-15T09:16:00.000+00:00VAT is a particularly nasty and harmful tax and ca...VAT is a particularly nasty and harmful tax and can be removed as soon as you withdraw from the EU.<BR/><BR/>Do I get a job in your 'cabinet of cunts'?Trixyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02015060663707102784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-43141391087082213212009-01-15T08:47:00.000+00:002009-01-15T08:47:00.000+00:00Obo - here's a thought re:health services. 1. Sell...Obo - here's a thought re:health services. <BR/><BR/>1. Sell ALL hospitals and NHS facilities to organisations such as BUPA<BR/><BR/>2. Buy services from them for those who MUST be covered by them including HM Forces and HM<BR/><BR/>3. Everyone else: mass insurance, which is tax-deductibleColdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08509695287654343035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-2529607357162272312009-01-15T02:52:00.000+00:002009-01-15T02:52:00.000+00:00Excellent ideas on taxes and expenditure.How about...Excellent ideas on taxes and expenditure.<BR/>How about eliminating the 'payroll vote', by preventing benefits claimants and public servants,(apart perhaps from police and army) from voting. <BR/>Also, deport asylum seekers and Commonwealth immigrants, revoking grants of citizenship. Close Quangos and fake charities. Jail or execute all the PC vermin and confiscate their ill-gotten gains.Odin's Ravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10138497698247404499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-83442708191102884792009-01-15T02:44:00.000+00:002009-01-15T02:44:00.000+00:00Great work Obo ;-)Great work Obo ;-)John Pickworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02166443099429490782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-42385984937784355722009-01-15T00:02:00.000+00:002009-01-15T00:02:00.000+00:00As an employer NI really annoys me. Roll it into a...As an employer NI really annoys me. Roll it into a flat tax Obo. <BR/>I'm going to be slammed in a couple of years to ease the national debt. Therefore I will not be taking anybody extra on PAYE even if business increases.<BR/>AlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-48826285562222489762009-01-14T22:11:00.000+00:002009-01-14T22:11:00.000+00:00Obo, if you called him a cunt I'm not entirely sur...Obo, if you called him a cunt I'm not entirely sure Gordo would host the petition.<BR/><BR/>Maybe it's not such a good plan anyway. Too complicated. But your scheme should be more widely known and then adopted by every "democratic" government. Yeah yeah ...Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15984396354633891857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4471993488623327927.post-75834450628323838522009-01-14T21:52:00.000+00:002009-01-14T21:52:00.000+00:00This blog post will be gone in the mist of time bu...This blog post will be gone in the mist of time but I am quite happy to argue the toss at<BR/><BR/>x_y_z@yahoo.com<BR/><BR/>x = david<BR/>y = thompson<BR/>z = contractsDavidNclhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01110363165024627157noreply@blogger.com